The ratio of support to complaining?

[jemmons]

Classically, the things people say they like about the Elektronauts community are that it is helpful, welcoming, supportive, and not gearspace. There’s been a lot of meta discussion around the changing vibe on here, and this has lead me to go through a bunch of my old favorite threads to see if I could detect a shift or identify any pattern to it.

Anecdotally, what I’ve found is an increase in complaining, and a decrease in support. My favorite posts that feel most aligned with the "helpful, welcoming, supportive” vibe were the ones filled with people asking and answering questions. Those also tend to be the ones with the most likes, for whatever that’s worth.

Conversely, the most gearspacy posts are people complaining with no real objective apart from venting their spleen.

Now let me quickly clear something up: I’m not calling in the tone police. I’m not saying “all posts must be positive!” or “no criticism allowed!” But there’s is a huge difference between criticizing something in a supportive manner and merely complaining. Compare, for example:

I cannot stand the timestretch algo on 𝑋. Particularly on vocals. I’ve tried slicing them up to fit to the grid so I don’t have to stretch as much, but it still just sounds so metallic and Is there a trick or examples of getting decent results from the timestretch? Or can anyone recommend a better box for this? Maybe with some wavs for comparison?

vs.

lol 𝑋 sucks total waste of $$$

The first example is quite critical. But it’s not just yelling into the void. It’s asking for support. This is not just a tone thing. Asking for (and being) supportive leads to a few very important behaviors in the community:

• It’s hard to flame someone who is asking questions instead of stating facts. This leads to more friendliness.
• The natural response is to answer the questions (“better box?”) rather than attack the premiss (“timestretch quality”). That means less flame wars, but also increases the chances the angry poster finds a solution and becomes happy. This makes us feel supported.
• Even if the answers don’t help the OP, they may help someone. I saw a lot of old threads where someone piped in to say “OMG found this on google and thanks so much!” for example. That leads to us being a helpful place to follow.
• The more helpful we are, the more the reason to visit is to make music rather than complain. A place where people gather to complain is very gearspace. A place where people gather to make music is… better than that.

So to me, and again very anecdotally, it seems less complaining and more support is a key ingredient to what makes Elektronauts Elektronauts. But our guidelines, while tackling good and vital topics like personal attacks, being civil, and staying on topic, don’t really address this. Maybe they can’t. Maybe this is a “you’ll never stop the trolls, you can only starve them” thing?

But if it is a key part of the shifting vibe around here, and we’d like prevent further shift, I’d love to hear ideas about how to better encourage a helpful and supportive atmosphere.

[ViolentMeals]

Right on!

[Kegeratorz]

Agree but why bring the OT into it?

[alechko]

I try to help when I can, same way people helped me when I started with Elektrons, but, I guess there’s a difference between a sincere seeking for help and being lazy, when I see someone genuinely confused about something or has no idea how to proceed with something, I try to help, but not because they were too lazy, for example:

• “I’m loosing my faith, I’ve been trying to do X last couple of days and can’t figure it out, I’m ready to give up on life” - I try to help.
• “just bought X and I need to do Y, I don’t have time to read the manual so give me detailed instructions or video” - yeah no, at least try doing something, you know, learning curve and all that, put in some effort and when you’ll get stuck come back.

@jemmons

I’d love to hear ideas about how to better encourage a helpful and supportive atmosphere.

I don’t think there’s a way to do that, some people come in expecting chat-gpt type of chat, i.e. asking whatever and expect insta help like from the chatbot, and sometime it works and sometime it doesn’t, I don’t know if there’s a way to emphasize that this is not a chatbot and people share their experience and time, so least you can do is do some self learning and if you can’t figure something out then sure they’ll help, but the chatbot attitude is really annoying.

[plragde]

I have a quote in my head from decades ago; I can’t remember whether I heard someone say it, heard someone say they heard it, or it was something that was once famous.

“I think we positive people should get together and push out all the negative people.”

I remember it as an example of naive oversimplification, but in this case I think it actually has merit. Not “push out”, perhaps, so much as “convince” or “convert”. Some new forum members might start with the sort of cheap, shallow snipes that seem to pass for discourse on many social media, but soon grow to appreciate thoughtful replies and encouragement. Others (and there will always be some like this) have wrapped themselves in so many layers of defensiveness that nothing much will penetrate, and support and compassion will always be viewed as weaknesses. All that one can do with them is dilute their poison and hope that they get bored of not igniting flame wars and either simmer down or go elsewhere.

I know the OP always leads by example and I will redouble my efforts to do the same.

[Kegeratorz]

@plragde

I have a quote in my head

Me too:

Alligators are ornery cause they got all them teeth but no toothbrush

[digimatt]

I will try to help if I think I can and no one else has yet. Sometimes I read a post and suspect they could do a bit more to help themselves but I am a believer in kindness being infectious and sometimes a bit of help for the more awkward posters can lead to them making more effort in the future, whereas the opposite rarely has a positive effect on their attitude.

[plragde]

@digimatt

Sometimes I read a post and suspect they could do a bit more to help themselves

Sure, in which case one still helps, but also explains how they could have helped themselves (e.g. quoting section/page in the manual, or linking to tutorial videos). I’ve certainly been guilty of overlooking things in manuals that were in retrospect pretty obvious.

[shigginpit]

I don’t always have the time or the correct answer, but I try and plant as many proverbial trees as I cut down, to whenever possible practice using positive tones and positive positioning especially with new members, and I’m a firm believer that if you don’t like what you see and don’t feel like you can make a positive contribution, that threads have a mute option for a reason.

Whether or not brevity is a positive contribution is likely subjective so if it seems like I’m off the mark in my self assessment then I wouldn’t argue with that interpretation either. While I’m positive everyone can indeed find ways to grow and improve this space, I’m not entirely positive trying to pinpoint that which has changed will in any way help to quarantine it.

That said, I don’t disagree with OP or any opinion expressed here thus far and while I was perhaps not present during the glory days, I too grow weary of some of the arbitrary negativity which has been seeping into the ground water “as of late”. I don’t prefer having to mute threads that might otherwise be interesting to me but with minor exceptions I would rather avoid providing unproductive or ineffective negative counterpoint just because I don’t like what someone else is saying.

This does not, however, prevent my feelings of wanting to call people on their bullshit hence why I try and put it out of sight rather than figure out the best way to position a rhetorical fuck you. This is honestly as much as I have the energy to do while still remaining positive and brevitous.

[Kegeratorz]

@shigginpit

while I was perhaps not present during the glory days

Today is glorious! Enjoy it while you can!

[Landings]

When the majority of the questions and gear were focussed on Elektron products yes id agree.
But the explosion of new products in last few years has made this forum much more diverse. And that explains the catchment of a much more diverse clientele or membership and attitudes towards music making.

[Landings]

@shigginpit

the glory days

Thats the Elektron days i think

[datarishi]

I’ve not been on this forum particularly long, but I have always found people to be helpful if I have a query. I also try to contribute back, like documenting a fix to my own problems when they’re solved.

Perhaps there’s more drama than previously, but a consistent volume of helpfulness. It just happens to get buried more quickly.

[Microtribe]

I’ve found I use the mute button more and more. Definitely noticed a change on this forum over the last year maybe.

The search engine is awesome. There’s some very knowledgeable people on here that are always happy to help. Ive got great responses (and album sales mind) from sharing my tunes on here.

So its still a banging forum.

[Jeanne]

@Microtribe

So its still a banging forum.

Best place on the internet!

Hurray to the Mods!!!

[LyingDalai]

Totally agree.
I love it when people help each other.
I especially enjoy tips & tricks threads, showing your own gear under a new light.

I do try to take the time before writing, weighing my words, how my post bring something constructive or positive on the table, if I show respect to people.
When enough people pay attention, a critical mass just change the global tone and naturally invite others to follow the lead.

Keeping this in mind each time one posts certainly brings some good to this place, both other Nauts and in the end yourself.

Thanks @jemmons for bringing this on the table, this is showing some care for the community.

Edit: thx @Jeanne

[davestasiuk]

Some of my favorite threads are ones that very easily could have gone off the rails, because they are meant to be discussions focused on opinions that run a little deeper than questions about how to accomplish something or work through a snag.

(I do love the helpfulness and civility people show when the question is specific and technical, however, and I try to do my part where I can!)

But some of the threads that could become argumentative or toxic in other ways don’t a surprising amount of the time here. And when a diversity of opinion can cohabitate the same space, to me at least it creates a much richer discourse. I am grateful for sure for the moderation here, which plays no small part in nudging many errant posters back into the realm of civility.

When it does degenerate, it can get pretty bad, and that’s always a bummer. I’ve observed that these events typically occur when a poster goes into brow-beating mode, and disagrees loudly by simply repeating themselves and/or posting endless examples, with ad hominem either directly embedded or simmering in innuendo.

I do think though that the risk of things going off-track is worth the risk for when these riskier topics stay focused on proper discourse.

I remember when @shigginpit started the “Check in” thread I was worried it would slide downward, and when one post was on the edge of being dangerously political, I waited for the other shoe to drop…and yet it has remained one of the most poignant and beautiful lines of vulnerability and support I’ve ever seen on the internet. I have literally cried reading that thread, genuinely overcome with the desire to give strangers hugs if support…and definitely knowing that the sharing there provided many people (myself very much included) a sense of belonging and empathy that was very helpful.

[aono55]

I this day and age, the forum is just a welcome sanctuary.

Like in a game where you finally reach a town that’s welcoming and interesting lol

Threads and gear insights are usefull, as far as I’ve seen people are mostly supportive even though you may not agree with them always. Sure there is some negativity in gear discussions but they are not too much.
And even though I enjoy in general socio-political discussions I’m glad this is a place there isn’t just much of that. It doesn’t need to be.

Just my 2 cents.

[hausland]

Me personally, I find the complaining about “complaining” easily the most disruptive and off-putting quality of this forum in recent times.

People writing critically about gear they own or stating disappointment with a piece of gear or particular aspects of a piece of gear should be fair game on a forum about gear. Yet, such posts tend to attract “rebuttals” (often entirely unnecessary) that frame such comments as out of place, “complaining” or “negative.”

I find that type of aggression towards (seemingly) divergent opinions much more off-putting than the occasional rant about a piece of gear someone ended up not liking as much as they thought they would. (That’s NOT to say that genuine negativity doesn’t exist on this forum — it does and I think that merits to be call out).

I also want to challenge the notion that a positive discussion on here has to be an exchange of support requests and tips & tricks solutions. I for one need very little support in using my gear and I tend to like to explore things for myself. I frequent this forum primarily to read the OPINIONS (and banter) of likeminded people (or otherminded people with similar interests), not for tips or tricks. That’s not to say that I don’t appreciate people helping each other on this forum, I think that’s great and I think it should ALSO be a place for P2P support, but at least to me, that’s not its only purpose.

I think tonality is also changing recently. More aggressive/personal language not only seems to come through more often but also seems to be tolerated (or missed) by the @mods more frequently (maybe also due to growth of the forum and more volume in general?).

All that said, I feel this is still one of the better - if not best - communities I frequent online, but for me at least, I’ve had less interest in hanging around in recent times for the reasons stated above.

[Kyunghee]

To me this recurring mantra of “positivity” doesn’t make sense. As long as a comment is constructive, it shouldn’t have to be positive. People should be free to express criticism and dissent as long as they’re polite and thoughtful.