I like it here. I won’t complain.
I learned so much even from decade old posts I dug up while searching for specifics.
And I try to humbly share some more or less useful insight in return.
There’s a very valuable, oftentimes underestimated quality in not-responding.
Agreed. But I view “positivity” more broadly, as making a positive contribution to the discourse. It doesn’t mean just approving of something. When I am researching, for examples, restaurants in a city I’m visiting, I put weight on criticisms with substance, and tend to ignore generic praise. I appreciate hearing about issues people are having with gear.
honestly, Ive just got so tired of this in social media, and pretty much backed away from helping and discussing many issues online because of it
now, let me state up front, very clearly,
Im talking about a vocal minority, most are pleasant, reasonable, understanding.
and even this minority, are often motivated by frustration (or being over eager?)
however, it seems some in discussion forget the basic idea of constructive criticism, rather than just criticism/complaining.
what seems to have happened is many believe complaining works because on social media - since many people complaining creates a voice that has to be responded too.
i.e. it has a purpose in and of itself.
alongside this too many are uninterested in the reason behind the ‘issue’, and complexity of the issue at hand to solve - “I just want it fixed, it’s their responsibility”, any conversation around this … is met with “you’re a fanboy, you’re defending” etc.
and don’t me started on those that trivialise issues without any knowledge …
“its a simple fix”, or “every other X has this feature, its the norm”,
basically, if they can imagine it, then its easy… and economic/sensible to do.
they also don’t care that the use-case is very specific - just make it an option.
then we have the unfortunately fact… social media leans heavily into criticism.
its very easy to criticise/complain, anyone can find fault with anything.
and unfortunately, negative based content is ‘engaging’ , this is proven time and time again… you want to make a popular video - just slag off something…
you’ll get a combination of those agreeing with your (pour oil onto the fire) and those defending … and YouTube algo loves/rewards both forms of ‘engagement’ equally.
and I believe this kind of ‘tribalism’ has spilt over into forums etc.
social media also promotes a concept of a hype and crush cycle… deliberately building expectation for something new, then crushing it later for clicks and engagement.
sorry, turned in to a bit of a rant…
but im just so tired of the social media, and what makes me sad, is I actually don’t see a solution … the mechanics of social media and its anonymity flat out encourages this behavour… and its getting worst year on year 
again, repeat, what I said at the top… this is a vocal minorty.
most people are reasonable / rationale… but often they tend to be pretty silent too, as they aren’t interested in the fireworks and drama.
note: none of this is, ofc, specific to music tech etc… you see exactly the same behaviour in every topic from gaming to cameras to drones to hi-fi.
…complaining is not condoning…
but if complaints got a reasonable and relateable thought in their core, they’re fine…
if it’s just a moody rantlike opinion piece, it’s a downer for everybody else…
i don’t see any growing lack of will for helpfulness here…quite the opposite…if somebody got a question, needs support, tries to find an answer, this place rocks…
it remains one of the rare good places out there…and one of the last boards i like to spent a little time on daily bases…
perhaps not… or perhaps there is., but its hidden.
whilst not specific to here…
In the past I was quite active on a number of forums, actively helping newcomers in a variety of areas, and also discussing ideas etc.
however, in the last year, I have actively stepped away from engaging in social media (forums in particular) because of this trend…
also, even passively, I avoid many places due to being tired of the constant complaining, that serves little to no constructive purpose.
the negativity (even if its justifiable!) is just so draining…
and I know others that have done the same.
ofc, for every one of us that step away, there will be others that join… and hopefully fill the gap.
but I do think it has a negative impact on communities.
sure, one can argue this has always been the case - ‘don’t feed the trolls’ was a saying almost from day 1 of the internet … long before modern forums/social media etc.
anyway, in that vain, we all have to come to peace with it, accept it for what it is.
for me, Ive been happy to just back away from social media… its a shame not to help people, but I can’t do that with the the extra stuff that follows.
…that’s a pretty reasonable and relateable complaint right there…
oh indeed , I get the irony of it… complaining about complaining 
however, I guess, what Im trying to do is highlight what I think the cause of the issue is, and also the what I believe is outcome.
I guess the stupid hope here, is someone reading , may think differently afterwards.
but I fully recognise thats completely futile, and really what we all tend to get from these kind of discussions is just a bit of re-affirmation - put another way “am I the only one thinking this? , am I crazy? have I missed something?”
but hey… here’s a small anecdote, of cause/effect.
I sometimes produce small YouTube videos, usually tips/tutorials.
Ive enjoyed doing this in the past, and get lots of really nice comments from people thanking me, explaining how its helped them etc
but you can guarantee (on any of the more popular videos) someone will complain I was ‘wasting their time’… and use the most original put down of “thats 5 minutes I won’t get back of my life” (oh , how droll you are)
seriously… a 5-10 mins video can take hours to film/edit (since dodgy quality will get you more trolls!) , and its obvious Im not monetised, nor that im paid to do this by anyone… and the viewer can click away at any time.
so yeah… I rarely bother with that now either…
so yes, negativity affects the community and resources it has available.
…no, seriously…totally reasonable AND relateable…
even if ur “just” describing that pretty common curse of modern times…
thanks - agreed a curse of modern times.
hey, I like to be even handed
I can also flip the coin over, and show how its kind inevitable… even by quoting myself 
one could say
"I complain but… "
i.e. that often people will complain because they are frustrated, e.g. its not met their expectation, or they find it difficult to use.
… and what they are seeking is that same affirmation…
I guess that’s the ‘social’ of social media.
It’s heartwarming to see so many folks speak up in favor of a helpful and supportive forum. A lot of this is addressing the response to posts, though. As in “if people ask for help we should be kind and help where we can.” I’m 100% for this.
But the lurking issue is more and more people are not asking for help, as it were. They are, instead, posting without substance.
Some very helpful distinctions have been made here between constructive and unconstructive posts. I think we could fruitfully dig much deeper into this (constructive does not need to be positive, seems to involve some amount of new thought or research or at least a clear answer to “Why?” I’m just summerizing thoughts above).
But the core issue to me is, what to do about the nonconstructive posts to dissuade them? To date, I’ve simply been ignoreing the poster/thread. But the recent flagging conversation pointed out that makes the experience better for me but not anyone else (and it’s not great for me… most threads I follow are half “click to reveal hidden comment” links now).
But flagging feels wholly inappropriate. Maybe I’m wrong about this? A requirement that a comment contribute to the conversation is in our guidelines, and someone complaining without substance is not contributing. Maybe flags are the way to go?
Alternately, engaging seems to be wrong. I’ve tried, but derailing a thread to have a meta discussion on the importance of constructive criticism to the health of a forum is counterproductive.
Maybe the solution is not to flag or engage but to simply ask “Why?”, full stop, send post. I wish there were a big “?” button like the 
we could press. Not a downvote. Just a “huh?” or “what’s your question?” button.
It seems that the world is agitated. Those with Jungian sensibilities might even say that the collective unconscious is agitated. Either way, everybody’s probably feeling it, even if unplugged from the 24 hour doom cycle.
Perhaps it is inevitable that this agitation finds its way onto a generally benevolent and well-meaning forum such as this. It does seem helpful to shine a light on it though, if only to bring it into awareness. Ebbs n flows, peaks n troughs, fish n chips etc…
I have only flagged a few times, but I seem to recall an option there to communicate directly with the owner of a post. Perhaps one “please be more constructive” will just bounce, but if they get several or it happens often enough, they might get the message.
The problem with this, in my experience of forums, is that anything other than a ‘like’ always ends up being used as a sort of passive-aggressive ‘dislike’ or in a sarcastic/ironic way, to the point where really no meaning can be construed from it at all.
To me, if something isn’t ‘flaggable’* but doesn’t suggest any thought beyond venting/moaning/complaining/whatever the only thing to do is ignore it. If everyone does that there’s no derailment and the poster will soon realise that sort of talk doesn’t get any engagement. Best case scenario: they start putting a bit more effort in, worst case scenario: they find somewhere else to post.
*To be honest I’m not sure I’ve ever flagged anything, maybe I should given the recent comments from mods about it but the concept does feel a bit alien to me.
but what is an un-constructive post?
as an “engineer”, Im a natural problem solver - this is why Im so pro ‘constructive criticism’.
if someone ‘complains’ about a bug (on a product that is not mine) , then my natural tendancy is to want to understand the nature of the bug, and how we might workaround it. I feel the need to solve (control?) it
however, I learnt a valuable lesson a few years back the hard way) …
this can really irritate / frustrate / annoy some people.
they’ll often view it as defending , or accepting the situation etc
I think they see raising issues ( * ) as simply bringing ‘light’ to the issue, so that the powers that be are ‘pressured’ into resolving the issue.
if you believe in this, then complaining is ‘constructive’, a way to bring about change…
Im not saying either is right here…
rather I now understand my tendency to try to want to solve things, when sometimes people just want empathy … and how thats caused me all sorts of problems in life
( * ) some could substitute ‘complain’ here, but I want to show the flip / positive side.
I’d love to dig a little deeper into this. I agree we’d lose something were we to become exclusively a “tips & tricks” forum. And I 100% agree that being critical about gear has a place here!
I guess I’m trying to draw a distinction between being “critical” (negative with careful thought) and “complaining” (negative hot take). Because negative hot takes abound, and more frequently than any other type of post I’ve found seem to embody the whole contentless, argumentative, baiting screed that is not good for the community (in my estimation).
So what is the best way to deal with those? Because any response attempting to clarify or point out work-arounds or inaccuracies in the complaint often get interpreted just as you say — as unnecessary apologist rebuttals. And yet they attract these rebuttals like flies to honey.
I think, unfortunately, flagging is indeed the way to go. I say unfortunately because DISCUSSING mentioned issues usually leads to more off-topic posts within a thread and doesn‘t really solve the issue (I‘m guilty of that quite often myself, trying to hold up what I understand to be the values of this community and thereby contributing to the issue in first place myself). More mods could probably help as well, but I don‘t envy any of our mods for their “jobs,” plus it’s prob not easy to find people who bring the diligence, generosity and integrity on a consistent basis needed for that role.
Alternatively shift those convos to PM with the involved persons? I’ve tried that once or twice, it seems to yield better “results“ than a public dispute (again, guilty as charged on this myself, so just reflecting).
Yeah exactly, that’s what I was on about earlier as well. In organisational theory, you’d clarify the ETHOS of the shared space and then you’d enable positive conflict when the ethos is believed to not be upheld…which in turn evolves the application of the ethos by the community/participants aling a case-by-case basis.
EDIT: in terms of Enabling Positive Conflict — I feel we are not well enough equipped to enable this on this forum. I understand the “just ignore it” thing, but I’ve also experienced - in real life - how ignoring the trolls can lead to a takeover of the space and its cultural sphere by the trolls.
unfortunately… don’t feed the “trolls”, seems to be the only way.
(but as @hausland says above, for sure, this has its own issues)
Im fine with flagging posts, but theres two big issues with extending this…
a) no one likes being moderated !
they often become very defensive when they are moderated, they view it as being silenced etc. over moderation will get moderators into deep muddy water fast.
b) moderators shouldn’t (nor likely want to ) be that arbiter of what’s reasonable to discuss?
it’s ok, with clear cut rules… sexists, racist, being rude etc.
but ‘unconstructive’ is a pretty loose term… as above, sometimes complaining is just a way of finding out if others feel the same , or bringing light.
I will also say, I do not think many ‘hot takes’ ( nor their rebuttals) are intended to be argumentative… but at some point, one side or the other views they are trying to be ‘silenced’ , thats where it kicks off.
comes back to the lack of subtle in text, and also anonymity… creates a space for misunderstanding etc.
This, I’m realizing, is more than anything the genesis of this post. I’ve been in “just ignore it” mode (with occasional outbursts) for a while and am concerned by the results. But don’t really know what the appropriate active role is for me to take.
Do you have a sense for what “well equipped” would look like? Are there books I should be reading?
This thread is weird. It makes me want to avoid posting here in general. Complaining about complaining is worst than complaining imo.
This is a good example. I appreciate it makes you feel weird and that you dislike like constructive criticism of unconstructive criticism.
What would really be helpful and constructive is if you could provide some thoughts as to why. What makes you dislike it? Why does it make you not want to post? What would alternative approaches look like?
Just saying “I don’t like thing” is valid, but doesn’t really contribute anything. The only possible responses it leaves open are:
The first doesn’t take us anywhere or add anything. The second is just as pointless and reductive as the original statement — but if we decide the original is fine then this response must be too. Which leads us into the loop of endless pointless bitching emblematic of other forums.