Hey everybody - I saw a guy on YT conjecturing that to have proper automatic beat slicing, not just grid chopping, it would require a bunch of additional meta data and possibly an altogether different software architecture that the Digitakt II probably isn’t built for.
Does anybody here have to knowledge to speak on this? I’m strongly considering getting the Maschine Mikro Mk3 just for auto-chopping breaks, but if it’s likely to happen in a future firmware update, I could just wait and do it on the Digi.
nobody knows and nobody is gonna tell you any different to the guy on YT until we all know, which I don’t think is better than 50/50 in the medium term
it’s not gonna happen in the short term, get what you need now with whatever devices that have it nowor make the best of the device you may already have by making the best of its current features
I don’t know how the guy could know it need a different software architecture.
But I guess there would quite a few change which need to be done on the DT, a bit like on the OT which allow to set arbitrary slice.
Auto detection of transient has always been something complex to handle so I would not bet too much on it. But would be nice to have for sure.
But I would not expect it to be as good has on a PC or similar. It’s like time stretch this is quite cpu/memory intensive when the algo try to make guess where the transient is, and it need to be help by user feedback.
Simple case are easy, real world case are … hard.
I don’t think there is anything fundamental about the DT2 technologically that means that it cannot do auto beat slicing. I think the challenge lies in making a robust and user friendly interface for slicing beats, and that the people who work at Elektron and decide on features for firmware updates aren’t convinced of it’s necessity.
I’ve seen quite a bunch of people commenting on the lack of auto-slicing being somewhat of a major drawback on the Digitakt, and I gotta say I agree, but if it’s a question of CPU power or some other intrinsic difficulty I can totally understand it. If it’s just a matter of developers just not thinking it to be much of a big deal, I think they’re seriously mistaken. Thanks again!
I don’t think it was necessarily auto-slicing people had as much of an issue. Mainly manual slice points versus grid slicing.
I also think realistically, it’s not hard at all to set start points and then save the “slice” as a sound. Not ideal but I think some of it is people being a little lazy when it comes to slicing. I’d like it to come no doubt but if you really wanted to slice you can definitely do it on the digitakt and it’s not much more work than the Octatrack.
Agreed, I think a lot of the detractors don’t understand how sound/preset locks work, or that it’s possible to do a lot more with an individual slice on a Digitakt (OG or II) than on most other devices, including the Octatrack.
I would like to see a feature where you could auto slice up a loop much like Grid but in one shot mode, then I can adjust the start point of each slice and play them in chromatic mode.
Dear elektron here’s how I have successfully auto detected transients in my own DSP adventures:
(This should run once when a sample is collected or when user says detect points)
Start with a sinc function and its first two derivatives. These are nice closed form trigonometric expressions
Apply a window of your choice (hann, hamming, Blackman, etc) to each function so that they taper to exactly zero at say -2 and 2.
Store this windowed kernel in a lookup table of say 512 points (~4kb), only sampling half due to symmetry/antisymmetry of these functions
Use these three windowed kernels to interpolate your signal. Taper range = convolution width. -2 to 2 yields a 4 tap FIR filter. This gives us a bandlimited version of our signal and its first two derivatives at any sample rate
Calculate the Teager Kaiser Energy Operator defined as first derivative squared - x * second derivative. This gives us a good perceptual measure of energy in the signal. Run at lower rate to smooth result naturally
Use a digital threshold detector with hysteresis to find transient locations. “Strength” setting could set target threshold but an auto leveling metric works better
That’s pretty much it. You can store the TKEO result at very low resolution to use as a modulation source for example. We aready calculated it no reason to throw it away. Obviously much nuance to it working perfect but that’s the idea. You could do it with linear interpolation and finite differences for a much shittier approximation if you wanted, but in my experience sinc interpolation with the right window is king. You’re only running once offline so it’s not too costly EOD. If I can do it on an Arduino Zero you can manage it with your SHARC DSP. Think about it
It’s not for lack of algorithm experience or DSP power, it hasn’t been prioritized for whatever reason.
These “use the power of imagination” threads don’t really do anything, far more effective to email feature-request@elektron.se because at least the company has a chance to monitor that.
Not wanting to sound like a jerk, but presumably you bought the DTII knowing how the slicing worked, as it’s the same as the original DT? Or did you not know how it worked, in which case, perhaps some research may have guided you towards a sampler which offered slicing the way you want it, ie an OT or MPC etc?
Lol, that’s the spirit! It’s always better to buy a device that already does what you want, than to buy a device and get all frustrated about it not being able to do what you want.
There literally hundreds (maybe? A hundred?) samplers out there that do auto/manual slicing. I’m getting the vibe that Elektron wanted to create the most streamlined and immediate sampling experience possible. For a user to have to zoom in and granularly chop up a sample, totally breaks the flow.
It’s hard to believe that Elektron didn’t make a conscious decision about omitting that feature. I think they chose not to include it.
If you’ve made the decision to use DTII, learn how to use it as it was designed.
… At the same time, this forum is a great way for Elektron to gather user feedback on their devices… So maybe just get a little more constructive with your complaints.
I bought a ST a while ago and absolutely love it. That was my first Elektron device. I wanted to stay in the Elektron workspace and was torn between OT and DT2.
If an updated OT was launched, I would’ve bought it. But reading the forums It really looked like the product was going to be abandoned. So I took a gamble based on the new platform of the DT2 the fact that the OT was so old and no replacement, the thinking that the marketplace is full of examples of other samplers at the same price point as the DT2 packed with features such as the ability to manually adjust slice points. Surely Elektron would want to remain competitive against products like MPC?
Sorry if I appear negative. It’s more than I’m upset with my own decision that I made.
At the end of the day, I bought the DT2 because I wanted something that was portable, had scope for improvement, workflow, excellent integration into my home studio and a warranty.
This is just a personal thing, but I hope Elektron never designs their instruments with “staying competitive” as the primary goal. I would much rather they attempt to make unique and useful devices rather than chase the features of other devices. I think that is part of what makes the ST so great. They weren’t trying to make a device that does everything every other drum machine does.
I agree with this, as long as they don’t think proper slicing is something esoteric rather than a standard feature that any sample based, sample slicing sampler should have as a bare bones standard… I believe the equivalent on a synth would be a filter…
but otherwise definitely I too hope they always stay in the Elektron zone, the digitakt is one of my desert island pieces
Yeah, I would be very happy if they added it. But I’m not waiting to enjoy the device until they do. Honestly there are so many voices now that I will often just treat the whole bottom row of trigs like 8 slices of samples, loading the same sample as one shots into those spots. Then when I really like the slice points, I will save them as sounds, and use the preset trig mode to play the slices into one track. There are lots of ways to skin a cat though. I feel like people can sometimes get stuck in certain workflow paradigms, like slicing samples, and then think they can’t use the device a certain way. But it gives you lots and lots of tools to get similar results as slicing.
many ways to skin a beat I love it for this reason too… but it’s like there are many ways to make a sandwich but please let me slice the bread as thin as I’d like the simple way, with the knife instead of using a food processor… I feel like every keyboard should have keys, every guitar strings, and every sample slicing drumsampler precise slicing… is not too much to ask, and not something that would change the vision of the digitakt… now I’m not one of those who would give the digitakt up for the omission but I do feel it is an omission… kinda like when native instruments maschine came out and it had midi ports but no midi… it took them a good minute to fix it.
I know Elektron is aware of the need and I think the slice machine is a stop gap on the way to an even better solution, and I think the mono sampling issue is the same way, just basic sampling standards, they understand basic sequencing standards entirely already and once basic sample based standards become a part of their natural id the digitakt will be even more wonderful than it already is imho.
I love it for this reason too… but it’s like there are many ways to make a sandwich but please let me slice the bread as thin as I’d like the simple way, with the knife instead of using a food processor… I feel like every keyboard should have keys, every guitar strings, and every sample slicing drumsampler precise slicing… is not too much to ask, and not something that would change the vision of the digitakt… now I’m not one of those who would give the digitakt up for the omission but I do feel it is an omission… kinda like when native instruments maschine came out and it had midi ports but no midi… it took them a good minute to fix it.